Post-Cap Development for warriors · on 8/20/2010 3:54:11 PM 1966 Posted by: ROSENJ2 This is a topic that has been on my mind a great deal lately. Warriors are fairly limited in post-cap development. As many others who have spoken about this before have mentioned, warriors mainly have sideways growth available to them. I'd like to discuss possible ways to change this. If we look at a warrior's strengths right at level 100, we would immediately talk about a reasonably high AS with weapons (though probably not the highest - paladins or bards easily have this.) We would also note their ability to wear plate armor, their maneuvering ability, and their redux. Of these 4 major strengths, only redux has the capacity to get much better after level 100. The Warrior AS is extremely limited at this point as most warriors have already 2x'ed cmans and 2x'ed their weapon of choice. They can further train in armor to negate some of the penalties of plate, but the protection doesn't get better, and their DS will only go up some due to this overtraining. Finally, their maneuvering ability has the least chance of improving. These things are troubling. Semi's and Pures both have a very large capacity to improve their attack prowess - be it AS or CS, after cap. Some would argue that, once you swing over 500 or have a similarly high CS, it is irrelevant how high it gets, but it is actually the difference between needing an extra set spell/maneuver or not. This matters, especially in high level hunting grounds where creatures tend to swarm. The redux gains are certainly nice, but what is nicer is to never be touched at all. Again, Semis and Pures both have the capacity to continue to raise their physical DS's a large amount. However, I accept that redux is a defining attribute of squares, so I will not make an argument over worth compared to actual DS here. Finally, the lack of ability to make cmans any better is perhaps the most frustrating of all. Again, semis and pures continue to get better and better, post-cap, with their capacity to ward creatures. Warriors, however, whether its at 9mil exp or 25mil exp, have the same ability to use maneuvers.. and at max training are not capable of maneuvering a fair number of creatures in the high level areas with standard maneuvers. Some will argue that there are magic-resistant creatures out there - but there are more things that just cannot be maneuvered either due to the creatures training or level. If warriors AS's cannot improve to be able to attack something that cannot be maneuvered, and they cannot maneuver them, then a warrior simply cannot reasonably fight certain things. I have seen self-spelled post-cap empaths swing about as hard as warriors - certainly frustrating. Let's look at a warrior's weaknesses at 100. Their DS is poor. Whether its because of two-handed weapons, or just having to be in offensive for multiple hard seconds to attack, it is certainly one of the lowest in the game at 100. They are VERY weak to warding. They are fairly weak to non-cml maneuvers due to the offensive stance issue and armor encumbrance. The DS issue is one that warriors can improve some. Since warriors have the capacity to 3x dodge, or 3x shield, their DS can increase a decent amount. The weakness against non-cml maneuvers can also be worked on some, since warriors can 3x PF, and train down penalties on armor. But, the warding cannot be helped much, without extreme cost in actually researching spells. For a warrior to attain 120, for instance, he needs 20*120 = 2400 mental training points, or 1600 mental/1600 physical. Since TPs are earned at a rate of 1 phys/1 ment per 2500 exp, this is a 4million experience investment just to be able to cast the base version of 120. A brief tangent - many people have argued that, because warriors can pick up scrolls and use magic items, that issues like TD, DS, AS, maneuver-defense, etc can be mitigated. However, not nearly to the extent a pure or semi can continue to improve in these areas, since they also have these available, and the spells the pure or semi has in their circle can be very easily made better by increased training in the circle or lore training. Consider 120, or 425 as examples. As a capped warrior, I regularly make use of imbeds with 120, however, I have very little capacity to make the spell better as spell research is prohibitively expensive for warriors, as will be discussed later. I do not feel that warriors need to out-AS paladins/bards, out-DS pures, or out-ward either group. I do feel that warriors should have some capacity to continue to get better in both their strengths and weaknesses post-cap. As I see it, there are a few ways to do this: 1.) Add a square-lore system. This is asking a great deal as there would be a lot of development necessary, a lot of thought going into it, etc. However, this would be very interesting as it could provide a non-spell approach to giving warriors more capacity to grow vertically. 2.) Reduce spell research cost At 120 mtps, this is nearly twice as high as rogues, more than 4 times paladins, 6 times bards, and more on the pures. Yes, it should be high, but even dropping this to 90 would make warriors by far the worst at training these, and yet would allow post-cap warriors a more reasonable way to get spells and make them better. 3.) Allow squares to 3x cmans This would be fairly expensive, but it would give warriors another way to gain some AS, get better at maneuvers (their strength) and move vertically. This would not address the warding issue, however. Since maneuvers seem to be so heavily level dependent, I doubt this would even make warriors that incredibly better at maneuvering things. I am sure there are many other ideas out there, and I do not think multiple steps need to be taken. I would just love to see more capacity for warriors to get better. At this point, an 11million exp warrior (which is about what you need to have 3x dodge/3x PF) is pretty much the epitome of warrior training without going to spells, which are just so hideously expensive at it stands. One other note - I've heard people argue that warriors progress the fastest, and that pures/semis are weaker early and thus stronger later. While this was certainly true in GS3, I doubt how true that is now. As an experiment in Shattered, I rolled a DE Sorcerer spec'ed to hunt with 702/705 after 5th, and a G warrior with the standard claid route, and script hunted them. It took the sorcerer just 11 extra hours to hit 25th than it did the warrior, and I saw the sorc having the most issues at the lowest levels. Once the Sorc hit about 10th, he rested/hunted for about the same amount of time the warrior did, and the xp gain was nearly identical. Does 11 hours to 25 really justify the difference in post-cap development? ______________________________________________ Re: Post-Cap Development for warriors · on 8/20/2010 4:11:50 PM 1967 Posted by: ROSENJ2 One section I forgot to add was a bit more expansion on maneuver defense. As a capped warrior, a large number of my deaths is being stacked in RT due to maneuvers I do not know, or non-cml maneuvers. Warriors have no way to get better at this! In theory, warriors and rogues are supposed to be best against maneuvers, and yet it causes more deaths among the capped warriors I know than spells do. On the other hand, pures can learn 1x maneuvers after cap and defend nearly as well as warriors in specific ones. Being that there are a large number of maneuvers that most warriors learn 'standard' that are not actual maneuvers (bonding/spec/combat mobility, etc), warriors do not have a huge luxury in training against maneuvers just to defend them with 2x maneuvers. Yes, warriors have guild maneuvers already, which gives them an advantage in sheer number they can defend against, but there is a lack of parity here: pures do not get warded like warriors, and continue to get better with their TD. Warriors do get maneuvered almost as easily as pures by maneuvers they don't know (though a bit less frequently in general) and have no capacity to get better at this. The most obvious way to fix this would be to look at the maneuver system again, make it less level-based and more training based. (Does it make sense that you could be a 100th level wizard with 0 training in anything physical, and still have a 50th level warrior NEVER be able to feint you with a mastered guild skill and 2x cmans? The last time I checked, no nobel-prize winning chemist is going to dodge a tackle from a decent high-school football player) Also, putting dodge into maneuver defense would be fantastic. However, those changes would require a great deal of work, and I recognize that it would probably be better to look to give warriors more post-cap development in other ways. __________________________________ Re: Post-Cap Development for warriors · on 8/20/2010 5:17:17 PM 1968 Posted by: GALVANG1 >>One section I forgot to add was a bit more expansion on maneuver defense. As a capped warrior, a large number of my deaths is being stacked in RT due to maneuvers I do not know, or non-cml maneuvers. Warriors have no way to get better at this! In theory, warriors and rogues are supposed to be best against maneuvers, and yet it causes more deaths among the capped warriors I know than spells do. You bring up using 120 from imbeds, so I am guessing you make sure to use the other 'standard' spells available to you? 401, 406, 414, 101, 103, 107, small statue/spirit guard? Plus society symbols? I don't like having to use them but at cap it seems like a necessary evil if you want to survive and hunt well. That with x2 dodge as a two-handed user and I have enough DS to weather a large amount of rt. I only worry a bit when something gets a high roll and lands a spell. I've been in all the capped hunting grounds and nothing really seems to rt stack me. Bandits might have that ability but I specifically learned subdual strike, hamstring, and cunning defense to negate a lot of the rt they can impose on me(two ranks, two ranks and five ranks respectively) I have also learned two ranks of charge to defend against it when hunting Teras. __________________________________________________ Re: Post-Cap Development for warriors · on 8/20/2010 9:54:52 PM 1969 POSTED BY: PFLATS >>3.) Allow squares to 3x cmans Definitely. Post-cap, a spell-caster can know every single one of their spells. If they don't know every one, they've made a trade-off somewhere for more CS or other spell power. >>The most obvious way to fix this would be to look at the maneuver system again, make it less level-based and more training based. (Does it make sense that you could be a 100th level wizard with 0 training in anything physical, and still have a 50th level warrior NEVER be able to feint you with a mastered guild skill and 2x cmans? Just so other people seeing the point being made, here's my level 57 warrior vs. a capped character: [Roll result: -938 (open d100: 58) Penalties: 16] __________________________________ Re: Post-Cap Development for warriors · on 8/21/2010 8:10:17 PM 1970 POSTED BY: GS4-OSCURO >>They can further train in armor to negate some of the penalties of plate, but the protection doesn't get better, and their DS will only go up some due to this overtraining. I just wanted to mention that further training in Armor Use grants Armor Training Points, which you can spend using the ARMOR verb. One of the cornerstone goals of this system was to give purpose to maxing out the Armor Use skill, allowing squares to have more options for post-cap development. GameMaster Oscuro Rogue Team Cleric/Empath Team